Yesterday, there was an unfortunate incident involving Quincy and a new outside kitty. The kitty didn’t make it through the ordeal. I was understandably shook up and upset when it happened and Mike and I talked it over. It was decided to put Quincy up for an adoption to a loving NON cat home.
What happened is I let Quince off the lead in the back yard right at the edge of our pasture which is our routine. Out by the haybarn, there was a new black kitten who has been showing up in the mornings of late. Quincy saw him in the tall grass and took off and even though I called and ran after him, he was zoned in and going for it. His ears were full up, his tail was at full mast, he was bounding through the grass. In retrospect, I know he was playing. They did several rounds about the hay barn and then it was over. As it happened out of my eyesight- I was on one end of the barn headed in the other direction, I don’t know really what happened. I just found the kitten who had passed on.
Quincy came right to me. He didn’t bring me the kitten, he didn’t show any predatory instincts towards it. He seemed (for lack of a better adjective) confused about it all.
I pounced on him, put him on his back and pressed on his exposed belly. I was stunned and angry at the time, but I held him there for about a minute and then took him over and put him in his outside kennel. There was not a mark on the kitten. Did Quincy step on him? Roll on him? Did he die of a heart attack? I don’t know. I buried him in the forest and apologized for not watching out for him better.
In all other aspects, Quincy is a wonderful dog. He loves people, other dogs, he stopped chasing the inside kitties the second night he was here because I showed him under no circumstances would that be tolerated. It is when he is outside and he sees a cat in the field (not right next to him) but in the fields, he gets predatory. If you have ever seen a border collie work sheep- right before they are let into the pen or the field to do their work- they watch the herd with great intent. It is called “the eye.” They move very slowly (almost in slow motion) toward their “work” and then when released by the farmer.handler whatever, they run with intent and get to work. This is how he gets and he only does it outside when the cats are not grouped together.
So after having a night to think about it, pray about it and talk further with Mike and my best friend about all of this, I am going to try a couple more things to curb or redirect this behavior. We already have him with Cesar Milans Red Illusion collar which has worked out quite well. He has been able to stop chasing the inside kitties and in the first couple of days of his arrival here over a month ago, the chasing was pretty intense. The cats would take up hiding under the hospital bed and he would be poking his nose underneath and whining to get to them- but again, his tail was up, his ears were forward and he was playing.
Years ago, we bought a white german shepherd puppy from a local breeder. I was walking Ice in the back pasture on a long line and a bird flew by us quite low. Ice leaped straight up in the air, grabbed the bird in her jaws- crunched twice and ate the kill! Ice was 6 months old! On the way back to the house, a bunny ran across the field and it was all I could do to hold her back from killing it. Ice went back to the breeder that night and when we told the breeder why-she laughed and said that yes, she bred for high prey drive in her dogs.
What I saw in Quincy wasn’t that way. It was play and it occurred right after I had taken him on the Cascade trail early in the morning for a long walk (2 hours). We were off the beaten track on an old logging road and he was off leash and right ahead of me a few steps. We came to a curve in the trail and suddenly, he stopped- stiffened up- his hair rose on his hackles and he started growling. He backed up still staring off in the distance (I saw nothing out of the ordinary) but he was still backing up and so I started doing the same. I am not going to argue with a dog that has better scent then me. We started turning around to go back and he kept looking behind us just growling. When we had gone a little ways, I turned around to look back and saw the coyote on the ridge behind us!
So- because of this unfortunate incident, do I just give up on Quincy and put him into what I hope will be a better home than he has now? Or do I just try a couple more times to enforce to him that outside kitties are not sheep to be herded back to the group or to be chased into submission? As I stated above the jury is still out. You can weigh in with your comments if you wish. I will also tell you that Quincy is the first dog who has loved me to the point that even when I am at my angriest and disciplining him with words and non violent action- his doggone tail wags furiously the whole time! He not only has the herding instincts bred in Rotties, but he is also part German Shepherd who are also herding dogs. Twice the temptation!
I don’t know if there is an easy answer. I know you live out a ways, but maybe getting a long lunge line to keep him tied to you (or the house or whatever) in some manner since he has proven that no or stop isn’t an option for him.
I’ll start out by saying that I’m not a fan of Milan’s methods, especially for intelligent dogs who do best by thinking things through. Forcing a dog into a behavior is not nearly as effective as TEACHING a dog a behavior.
Herding breeds actually have decent prey drive, but it is a modified prey drive – modified into herding behaviors.
If Quincy were my dog, I would work on “redirect”. Take him out on a leash, when he sees a cat, teach him “look at me” (I prefer the click and treat method). Then you can reward him with a game of tug or something fun (to help burn off that “gotta chase” energy). If he cannot stop fixating on the cat, you’re too close and need more distance between him and the cat – back up and try again. With time and practice, you’ll be able to get closer and closer with him having more self control.
It’s all about finding his level of arousal and then working to change the behavior that he’s offering into one that you want. What do you want him to do when he sees a cat outdoors? I know you DON’T want him to chase the cat, but what behavior do you want him to offer instead? Think it through and plan it out ahead of time, so you can work to shape the behavior you’re looking for. And keep in mind this is a young, active dog who wants to please you – work with those qualities.
Right now, outdoor cats are associated with fun and chasing. You want them to be associated with you (look at me) and something else positive. Tug is good because you can do it on a leash, but find what works for him. Over time, you can increase the number and type of behaviors he offers when he sees an outdoor cat. He can learn to alert you to the presence of outdoor cats without chasing them, he can learn to back up five paces when he sees one (so as not to spook the cat), he can learn to sit upon seeing one, etc.
It’s all about deciding what behavior YOU want to see and then working to shape it (while being flexible enough to know that he is young and play motivated and work WITH him, rather than ON him – in dog training, BOTH parties should be learning).
You have a very workable dog there, imo and there’s absolutely no need to give up on him. Do some reading on behavior shaping and dog redirection – it’ll help you a lot. Good luck!
Yes, please follow Casey’s advice! And for the love of God STOP alpha rolling that poor dog. Seriously, you’re an animal lover does it make any sense whatsoever to use pain, fear and confusion as coercive techniques for an animal? Think about it for a second, he does not know any better, he’s never been taught what the appropriate behaviors are…you’re punishing him even though he’s just being a dog. You’re better than that, humans are better than that. Hurting him (and yes pinning and alpha rolling do hurt, doesn’t matter how they are done, they also are psychologically damaging!!!) will only further erode his trust in you.
This is a soap box of mine. The one thing that gets me is people who are true animal lovers still think it’s okay to use fear and pain based training techniques. Dogs do not think we are dogs! So the concept of alpha and pack order is ridiculous. They know we are humans AND we have opposable thumbs, we shouldn’t need to hurt them into doing our will. Not only that, dogs are not Wolves. Feral dogs do not pack up and work cooperatively like wolves. Study after study has disproved the notion of organized cohesive sustained packs in wild/feral domestic dogs. It just doesn’t happen, they are primarily scavengers with loose associations who mostly fend for themselves. Even wolves do not “pack up” like Milan and his ilk would have you believe. Turns out wild wolf packs are family packs, not unrelated Wolves coming togther. Mom and pop wolf have some pups, they stick around for a couple seasons and learn survival skills and help raise their younger siblings. There is never forced submission (alpha rolling and pinning) in wild wolves, packs are peaceful family units. Mom and pop are in charge, but that’s because they are older, wiser and more experienced NOT because they establish dominance.
Young wolves will choose to “show their belly” as an appeasement sign, but no other wolves are forcing them to do it. The only time a wolf pins another wolf is when it intends to KILL that wolf. It’s an incredibly vulnerable and fearful position. Basically when you pin your dog you are telling him “I am going to kill you.” Who the heck what’s that kind of relationship with their dog? I know some people enjoy that kind of relationship with their kids/pets and many, many people confuse fear with respect. I hope you aren’t one, because the beauty of a relationship with a dog that is built on respect and not an ounce of fear is something to behold.
Mind you, I am what they call a “balanced trainer” so I believe in and use appropriate corrections. However they are never arbitrary and never intended to hurt. I have a cat killer who lives with my cat and my parrots. He needed a short “correction” to snap him out of his “predatory state”. There just wasn’t time to desensitize and still keep everybody sfae. So, I gave a quick leash correction to regain his focus and then proceeded to work on desensitizing and TEACHING him what was appropriate/acceptable. It took months, but he now lives peacefully with animals who were perviously food. I shutter to think the outcome for everyone had I been using alpha rolls and other dominance based techniques through those months.
First of all, thank you for all your comments and instructions. I know you offer them with only the best in mind and not for any other reason. I know cats inside out- dogs not so much. I have a friend who lives and breathes Milan’s ways and she has been the one I have turned to in helping me out with Quincy. I think she believes Cesar is God *G*. I don’t share that thought although I will say his Illusion collar is the only thing I have found that works on this Rottie’s thick neck.
I did not think much about the alpha roll consequence on the dog. I didn’t do it because my friend told me to, or CM recommends it. I did it because there is German Shepherd around Quincy’s age that Quincy plays with quite often. Paco is a male and he and Quince both have strong Alpha personalities. Once all the playing and goofing around is done- they start to figure out who is in control of this friendship. Paco has taken to finally usurp Quincy’s alpha state (Paco usually lays down and rolls over in submission during these exchanges) but now he is turning the tables and Quince is submitting to him. I took my cues from them because I was in a loss as to how to redirect this type of behavior.
I never thought about it as showing Quincy what I wanted him to do instead- I just don’t want him to chase these cats. It is interesting and puzzling at the same time, but he will ignore the cats closest to him and focus instead at the ones who are farther away. Stepping in front of him, blocking him with treats, toys and even using the clicker hasn’t been successful. I use the watch me command and only get his eyes for a few seconds before he is back looking to see where the cat vanished to.
It’s a learning process and NO I do not intentionally hurt this dog or any dog. In my entire life, I have only hurt one dog and that was in the middle of a dog fight between my old German Shepherd Brandi when she was jumped by a pitbull. I grabbed a nearby shovel and wedged it down the pits mouth to keep him off my dog. It was the only way. I don’t want Quincy to fear me- just as I don’t want any of my cats to fear me either. I think he is bonded with me- but who is really to know.
I thank you again for your advice. I am not giving up on this boy and I hope he won’t give up on me as I strive to find the right answer to this situation.
I knew you didn’t/don’t want to hurt or inflict pain…you’re an animal lover. This is a vent, not directed at you, it’s just perplexing to me how many people do things “just because that’s what’s always been done” instead of really thinking about what they are doing. I am a dyed in the wool animal lover, stray cats, dogs, hamster and, heck, even parrots find their way to me and I care for them…each and everyone. Even I *used* to think this was the way, it was the only way I had ever seen/known and I just did it because, hey, it seems to work. And it does, it does get results the vast majority of the time.
Dogs are resilient, incredibly tolerant and forgiving and instinctually they want to be with us. It means that when we make mistakes (huge or small) the vast majority of dogs are going to be okay with it. It’s not until we start working with dogs that are outliers that we see how truly damaging this type of punishment based training system really is. When I got a dog who continued to “challenge” and meet “force with force” (according to the Milan thinking) I, of course, initially escalated that type of training. I mean, clearly he was a “dominant” dog and I needed to show him that I was really in charge and meant business. Our relationship deteriorated.
Gradually I started to realize that I was not liking the relationship that I was building. I wasn’t liking who I was becoming as a dog owner/lover and I wasn’t liking how my dog looked at me. He was well behaved, so many people commented on how well trained he was…but we weren’t a team anymore. He was a programmed robot. I wasn’t respecting him as a thinking/feeling individual. I thought, there has got to be a better way!
I did research and found this whole “new” school of thought (wasn’t really new, was actually very old, just new to me) and did a 180 on how I trained, looked at, related to and regarded my dog. He and I still had a rocky relationship. I messed up and he never fully forgave me, but I do think both he and I were happier after I took a step back and examined what I was doing. When I got my next dog (a GSD mutt) I took everything I learned and started building that trust. Otis was a freaked out, completely unsocialized 7 month old nerve bag.
After seeing the results of being fair and consistent, teaching him what I actually want him to do instead of punishing him for what he’s not supposed to do, I will NEVER go back. Otis has, literally, walked through fire for me. He was scared out of his mind, but that trust/bond meant that he did it anyway. I could never have achieved those results with anything Milan and the lot preach.
If you are interested in some different training techniques and ways of dealing with Quince maybe look into Lara Joseph, there’s a book called “Control Unleashed” a whole series really, that may be of help, Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Suzanne Clothier (“Understanding and Teaching Self Control” may be particularly pertinent), Ema Parsons, Pamela Dennison, Jean McDonaldson. I know there are more, but those are the ones I used extensively. There’s a plethora of youtube videos as well. Kikopup has great stuff, lots of trick training which is trust building too!
As far as what hasn’t worked, you may need to rethink your approach. If you can’t distract him it’s because he is “over threshold” which means no amount of redirection is going to get his attention. Its a wasted effort to try to train in that situation because he can’t focus and you’re just reinforcing the undesirable stuff. Instead, set up scenarios where you can redirect him, where he has the opportunity to practice and be heavily rewarded for the desirable behaviors. If trying to redirect when cats are across the yard is just too much, try redirection when cats are only halfway across the yard or he’s looking at them through the window or… And then reward heavily for looking at you. The minute he takes his eyes off that uber interesting cat and so much as glancing at you, stuff a HIGH value treat in his mouth. If he continues to look, keep stuffing for as long as he focuses.
Cut the treats tiny, I think I can get 100+ pieces out of a hotdog! You have to catch and reward the very instant that his focus breaks and you have to make it a jackpot huge reward so it’s higher value than staring at the cat. Its a long process, but you are not only trying to teach him the appropriate behavior you are actually changing the fundamental way he regards and perceives cats. That takes time!
I am stunned right now because a few minutes ago, I discovered the golden ticket. The ultimate distraction that Quincy cannot unfocus on- a brand new tug toy made by KONG and he loves it! I took him out in the back, all the cats were out and about. I dropped the lead- he of course saw Mystic out on the fence pasture gate and started to take off. I stepped on the lead, called his name and swung this toy high over his head. He did an about face- got all excited and we had several seconds of tug “Good Dog” time. I then went out to the pasture- Mystic had moved but was still on the fence- again his eye came up and he moved slowly forward. I stepped in front of him- waved the toy and BAM his full attention on me. “Cat? What Cat? Mom has a toy!” I flung the toy out in the field and he went full tilt after it- ignoring the cat as it ran for cover. I still had the lunge line attached to him and could have stepped on it at any time if my experiment hadn’t worked. But thankfully- it did. Now I just have to figure out how to stop him from leaping in the air when I sling the thing over my neck out of his so-called reach.
I am also sad because since posting this- I have been doing some online research about positive reinforcement training tips and Ian Dunbar’s videos etc. I learned that a pet expert, someone I had the opportunity to meet with a few times at cat conferences had taken her life. Dr. Sophia Yin DVM MS they called it a result of compassion fatigue. Dr. Yin has been very kind to me in the past when I have emailed her about cat concerns. I am truly sad that such a gifted and wonderful person has left us.
I am torn between two feelings here.
My first thought is “that dog has to go.” As you know, I rescue cats, too, although not on the same level that you do. Still, I would not try to bring in a dog, especially a rottie or any breed that is going to be too large to handle (I only weigh 118 lbs.) even on a leash — one that could lunge and pull the leash away from me, so that it could chase and kill one of the cats. I love dogs, but I will not allow ANY prey animal to hurt the cats. You do not have that dog under your control and now it has killed one of the animals you have sworn to protect… what are you thinking? That was my first reaction….
Then I remembered that my little miniature dachshund would walk out into the yard and, if one of the cats would run, she would chase. It was just instinct. I doubt she would have been able to hurt one of the cats if she caught it, at least not fatally, but she could not adjust and leave the cats alone no matter what method I tried to train her to leave them alone, so I finally found her another home even though we had had her for years before we began rescuing cats. She is quite happy with her new cat-less family.
I think you have to ask yourself why you want a dog. Is it for protection? Is it for companionship that you don’t get from the cats? Can you truly risk the cats’ lives so that you can have a dog? Or are you getting tired of cat-rescue or too old for it or fed up with the lack of local support for your rescue? I know that here in Tennessee the locals think we’re crazy to try to rescue cats. They believe that little kitties are cute, but when they stop being cute and start to have babies themselves, it’s time to set them loose in the farmland. In fact, many people here think of cats as vermin. There is only one vet in this town and he thinks about the same way the other locals feel. And he is half-retired, with no replacement for him in sight, so things are probably not going to change here despite my and my husband’s efforts. We are seriously considering moving back to Denver and have no idea what we will do with the cats we have, but we are about ten years older than you and your husband and we are also in poor health, although not as bad off as Mike is….
Once we return to a more urban area we will probably volunteer with Dumb Friends League or the Humane Society, but I doubt we will have any pets of our own, since we really cannot afford the upkeep of vets, groomers, food and medicine.
Only you can decide whether to keep that dog, but I suggest you do more soul-searching than you have so far. A cat’s life is precious and when you take on the responsibility of rescue you have an obligation to guard that animal, with your own life if necessary. Otherwise, you’re just fooling yourself.
Yes, Dr. Yin’s death was a huge loss to us all.
I will say that this dog sounds VERY workable – you just need to train in a way that works for BOTH of you.
This guy has some excellent videos that may help you two immensely –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdsuEZ4lcD0&list=PL1912AA0D771586FA&index=8
He’s got a bunch of them and he never hurts, humiliates, or upsets a dog in the process – that’s what I love about positive reinforcement – you have to think, the dog has to think, everyone gets on the same page and moves forward!
And yes, it’s VERY important to plan what behavior you DO want before you start. If you’re not sure, how can the dog be sure? And remember to break it up into little pieces so he can learn step by step – if he’s screwing up, it’s because you’re either not communicating effectively or you’re expecting too big a jump at one time.
I have a dog right now who is VERY toy motivated. He likes treats ok, but you can wave a perfectly cooked steak in front of his face when he has his toy and he WILL NOT DROP IT for food. Trying to teach him “drop it” with treats was an exercise in futility (and a massive learning experience for me, who had always had highly food-motivated dogs before and never a toy/play motivated one). We started with lower value toys and worked our way up to the high value (Kong SafeStix – he’s addicted to those things!) and now I can get him to drop even his beloved favorites. It takes time and patience, but there was absolutely no force used, we built trust, and he’s learned to think things through when I ask for a behavior.
So remember, if you’re frustrated (like I was – while I was using treats, I felt like it was a lost cause!), take a step back and try to see things from the dog’s point of view – what does HE want? What are HIS motivations? How can you use that to get what YOU want?
We all want our dogs to behave, but most of us never ask our dogs for *specific* behaviors. We just tell them NOT TO DO THAT. Which is odd because it’s much more effective to tell them, “Do this, instead of that.”
I have no doubt that you and Quincy will sort things out as you go! He sounds like a good dog who just needs some guidance in the ways of being a good dog!
my thought is that you know the dog and you know the cats, I firmly believe that he is young enough to learn not to chase the cats. They re not natural enemies, dogs his age likes to chase things. What happened was in my opinion an unfortunate accident, no way I am convinced that Quince would have hurt that kitty. if you have a click collar or a collar tht you can control, like a bark collar, you click he gets a jolt while you are saying stop, he can learn to stop on your command. I had a aussy, best dog ever but I worked with him on leash training and off training, he learned to stop when i said stop. (saved a couple of neighborhood boys from him a few times, not because he was going to hurt them but they ran, his instinct was to chase) I do believe that quince wanted to play and chase seemed to be the kitty choice. had the kitty stopped I am willing to bet the game would have been over. I think you are on the right track to start distracting him, find a code word that will get his attention while watching the toy, once he is distracted maybe giving him a reward (small treat) he will begin to associate the word with the toy and a treat. I funny but I use cat greenies, they are small and I can keep some in my pocket everytime I walk outside with the dogs. I can say halt, sit and it works. after he gets used to the commands you can just use the toy. he is young and trainable, I think you can train him.
And I have two dogs now a 3 year old jack russell, talk about high strung, I have had her for a year and she had never been around cats until she came to live with us my other dog is border collie and mix, she is 2 and has been with us since she was 8 weeks. She will hunch down taking the chase stance and raise one front leg when she is ready to play of course she is trained to do that only outside. I have 3 inside only cats. they do get into it on occaision, sometime the cats will chase a dog and sometime the dog will chase a cat. cats chase cats, dogs chase cats and it feels like a zoo here. But at the end of the day they will share a bed. off my “soap box” now
Thank you for your criticism of this situation although I feel it might be a bit misdirected. Prayers for us as we go forward would be appreciated instead, as I am going to keep Quincy and work with him. It would be a lot easier to just place him in another home- then it’s all over for me and the cats. But, to what end to put him in with strangers who may or may not be able to love him as we do.
I know absolutely nothing about dogs but I gotta say I *love* the idea of training him to do what you want him to do rather than training him to be afraid to do what you don’t want him to do. That is consistent with the view that dogs have been bred to want to please humans. Teaching them what pleases us rather what displeases us would seem to me to be more productive.
Thank you for not deleting my remarks. They may seem harsh and unfeeling, but I do think you are conflicted, due in part to the lack of local support and due to the emotional and physical stresses of your family situation, your husband’s serious illness and the fact that none of us is getting any younger. I applaud your effort to rescue cats and sincerely wish you well with the dog-training.
I read this post with great interest. I don’t know anything about dogs but I’m very impressed by your desire to train Quincy instead of just bailing on him. Thank you for letting us have a glimpse of your world. Good Luck!!
I am just catching up on blogs after the long weekend. I am very sorry Quincy did this. He probably was herding and may have snapped at the kitten too hard. Foxhounds in England kill foxes by grabbing it behind the neck. There are, so far as I’ve read, no marks on such a killed animal. Whatever you decide will be for the best, because that’s how you decide things.